books

[1] Posted by laura kinsale on 01.07.2010

Please feel welcome to discuss this book.  All opinions are welcome, positive or negative, but civility and polite language are required for comments to remain.  Political or religious references are not allowed, unless directly related to the book under discussion. I do answer questions but I seldom give interpretations about my books or characters, because I enjoy hearing what readers see in them.  These comments and discussions replace my old forum at The Terrace.  (Note that the spam captcha is an english word interspersed with a number—this may help you tell a letter from a number.  If it’s still too hard to see, reload the page for another one.) WARNING: Book discussions may contain spoilers.

[2] Posted by Scorpio M. on 01.07.2010

I MUST defend this book!

I am so glad that you do not write for every reader because if you did, The Dream Hunter might not have been written and THIS reader would have lost out. This is a book to be proud of, this is not a tale of a simpering miss and typical lord of the manor. It’s about two people wanting to live beyond the skin they’re in.

The term “soulmate” gets bandied about so much in the realm of love but when Zenia & Arden came together that is what I felt: soulmates. It’s hard to describe their chemistry because they were at odds with their interpretations of happiness but they “got” one another.

It was one little turn of a phrase, easily forgotten, that made The Dream Hunter catapult to being one of my most beloved romances of all time…when Arden dragged Zenia off the train and onto his horse in the snowstorm and held her under his coat, Zenia felt Arden’s breath brush against her face, feeling comforted and she recognized it as “the familiar life of him.” To me that was more beautiful, more meaningful than I love you.

Don’t doubt your ability, Ms. Kinsale. Maybe some readers might not get it but some do.

P.S. Arden, Lord Winter, if I were forced to choose would be my #1 romantic hero. I found his awkwardness utterly charming :)

-Jennifer aka Scorpio M.

[3] Posted by laura kinsale on 01.08.2010

Thank you Jennifer.  I truly appreciate every reader who loves this book.  Actually Arden is just about my fave too.  I think he’d make a great adventurer to see the world with.

[4] Posted by Colleen on 01.10.2010

This and Shadow and the Star are my favorites among your books. I just adore Zenia and how deeply, frighteningly scarred she is by her upbringing. She’s so divided against herself, but it makes utter sense in the context of the book. And I also love Arden, especially in his scenes with Beth. This book makes me cry every time I read it and has one of the most well earned happy endings I’ve ever read.

[5] Posted by laura kinsale on 01.10.2010

Thank you, Colleen!  I think maybe more readers “got” this book than I realized.

[6] Posted by Beatriz C Williams on 01.13.2010

Now there’s a discussion topic for the ages: why will readers put up with any amount of borderline-sociopathic behavior from the hero, but only accept a narrow range of mild neurosis from the heroine? I suspect it has something to do with the way romance readers tend to project themselves vicariously into heroines, and don’t want to “be” someone outside the comfort zone. So pert-n-sassy or shy-n-bookish it is. Again.

For my money, Zenia’s one of the more interesting heroines in romance: her vulnerability and endurance are beautifully portrayed, every action consistent. Her approach to motherhood may make us want to take her by the shoulders for a good shake, but it’s absolutely spot-on for her character and background. And what’s not to love about Arden? A resourceful adventurer with a soft nougat center—oh, the sweet strength of him. The scene in the prison slays me. Arden is genuine husband material, a layers-deep complement to Zenia.

And the prose, the prose! No one else in the genre comes close for subtlety and originality. The interlude in the desert, before Arden returns to England, is lyrical and understated all at once. Don’t ever think that it’s not worth the time and effort, that we don’t appreciate it, that everything has to be spelled out in the lazy overwrought cliches and head-bangingly anachronistic dialogue that pass for good writing elsewhere. Please take all the time you need. It’s worth it.

[7] Posted by laura kinsale on 01.14.2010

Beatriz, I really appreciate your comment.  I sometimes feel that I get lucky in the words that come to me for certain moments in the books, and I felt that way about the desert scenes in this one.  I’ve been to some deserts (thought not Saudi) and I think that came to me from long ago experiences with how the air and the quiet immensity feels.

Indeed, the Heroine Problem is a minefield! ;)

Funny, of all my backlist, I never would have predicted that this book would get the most numerous early comments!

[8] Posted by Dreamer on 03.04.2010

I LOVE the Dream Hunter!! It’s one of my faves! In fact, I wish you would write another story that takes place in that kind of middle eastern setting.

One of my favorite lines is from the scene where Zenia and Arden are being held captive, and she asks him if he thinks she’s like honey, and he says she’s like water…so clear and bright it hurts. (Or something like that.) Because he can’t live without water.

And I agree with Colleen about loving the scenes with both Arden and Beth. While Arden thinks he isn’t a confident person, I think he really is. I love how he takes Beth on a tour of the house. I felt such relief for that little girl. All she wanted was to be a normal child! And he let her do that. (And the picture of him in the jacket flap is stellar!!)

[9] Posted by Von Chestman on 03.11.2010

This book was my first foray into the romance genre.  Such quality and insight into the heart and mind.  Until I read this book, I only read classics, history and Elmore Leonard.  Yes, the characters were imperfect, but that is what’s so special about your writing.  I have often wanted to thank-you for writing.  I look forward to any new adventures you choose to create.

[10] Posted by eKathy28 on 03.13.2010

A book where the characters through love come to a new understanding of themselves is a book I want to read and re-read. Loved this one as much as the others. I absolutely cannot pick one above the other. They are all fabulous. I also think there should be an award for best pet names. And Laura would always win it. Wolf cub. How endearing is that? My thee-thou girl. Sunshine. It is interesting that the names sometimes reflect the part of the heroine that the hero needs the most. That your characters are not always initially sympathetic gives them room to grow. Zenia was never shrill. She was consistent. She had an alarming upbringing and she had no models for living in anything but an alarming way. When she was able to put that behind her so she did not have to live her mother’s life ... ah, that is what we should all hope for. Yes? We get it. Write for those of us who do and ignore the ones who want formula. Or at least don’t let them get to you if you can’t entirely ignore them.

[11] Posted by Heather on 03.18.2010

I was trying to find the name of the book Arden reads (Phrases for Charming Ladies of Quality? Something) and stumbled here and I was shocked to find this isn’t a popular book. It is my absolutely favorite of yours! It makes me cry every time, and the whole story is so heartbreaking and real yet lovely. Thanks for writing it for me I guess!

[12] Posted by laura kinsale on 03.19.2010

Thank you all.

[13] Posted by Nancy on 05.05.2010

Your writing is my favorite of all romance authors I’ve read, and this was my favorite of your books.  I never read a book twice, but the first thing I did when I finished this one was turn to the first page and start all over again.  (And I really did read every single word, again.)  I wish there were more heroines like Zenia - her flaws and their impact on her reactions made her seem so true, and since we knew her motivations, I felt sympathetic, not annoyed.  I can’t stand to read criticism of her and of this book - it is the gold standard for the genre for me!  Please continue to ignore it all and keep writing such original and fascinating heroes AND heroines.

[14] Posted by laura kinsale on 05.06.2010

Nancy, it’s really a compliment when a reader starts over again right after they read a book the first time! 

I figured out a long time ago that I just have to write what I write.  Some people like it and some don’t.  But I’m glad to hear from the ones who do.

[15] Posted by Liz on 05.17.2010

I would love to just stay here and write comment after comment on all the books (ahem, maybe I will eventually). I just finished Dream Hunter and my throat is still tight from the tears.  You do this to me every time!  My heart just broke for Zenia… just about cracked in a million pieces at the end when she finally asks Arden to help her.  I also love how Arden can say something as breath-stealing as that “water” comment and then ask “Is that a stupid thing to say?”

ARDEN:  You had me at “Oh, God.”

I have yet to find another author who can so completely envelope me in the story and the characters the way you do. On a funny side note, last night I lamented to my husband that I couldn’t put the book down and went on about how your books always do that to me.  His reply? “Huh. Why is there no Fabio on the cover?” ;-)

[16] Posted by Nancy B. on 08.05.2010

I just finished this GREAT book - ditto to what everyone else has said!  I also liked the note Arden put in the talisman charm - he can’t say it out loud but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel it.  Loved it!

[17] Posted by laura kinsale on 08.07.2010

Thank you Liz and Nancy B!

[18] Posted by Denise Herron on 08.13.2010

Ms. Kinsale,
I read “The Dream Hunter” recently while on vacation, and I wanted to tell you how very much I enjoyed it.  I have to admit that I was confused at the beggining of the story, but once Zenia arrived in England I totally got into the whole romance between her and Arden.  I was nearly in tears towards the end when I thought she was going to leave him. You have such an exquisite way of writing your love stories that each of your unique characters remains as memorable as all the others.  I just loved the ending when Zenia thought Arden wrote the note in another language and then he tells her to turn it over.  I am about to read “Lessons In French” so I can’t wait!  Unfortunately some of your older books aren’t available from the library, so I’ll have to seek them out at used book stores or order from Amazon.com.  Please keep writing these wonderful and powerful love stories.  Hope to one day hear that you’ve written a sequel to “The Dream Hunter”.  Wishing you all the best, as always!

Denise

[19] Posted by Melanie on 08.26.2010

I have decided to re-read some of my favorite authors, and I’m starting with you. Last week was “Flowers from the Storm”, and this week was supposed to be “A Knight in Shining Armor” by Jude Deveraux.  Well, that one will have to wait, as I have decided to re-read ALL of your books.  This week I’ve finished “The Dream Hunter”, and next week will be “The Prince of Midnight”....

I could not believe that people had negative things to say about this book.  I thought it so well written, so passionate.  My favorite part was the ending, when she comes back to him and he’s alone in the room with the book….I just cried and cried….Both our Hero and Heroine were too real, too human, just like all of us, not perfect. When I read, it’s like watching a movie. I picture it all. The characters, main and secondary…the places, the voices, smell…all my senses are engaged. You are one of those rare authors that does what that commercial for CALGON says “…take me away”! 

People often ask me, since I read a lot, which is my favorite book from such and such author, and I can pick them quickly. There are only two authors that I REFUSE to pick favorites, and that is because everything they write IS my favorite! You are one of them (second is Judith James).

Thank you for creating these two people who will stay with me for a long time!

BTW…today I’m stopping by at Borders to pick up your new one “Lessons in French”.

[20] Posted by laura kinsale on 08.26.2010

Thank you Melanie!  It means so much these days, with the ease of downloads on the internet, for someone to purchase a book (ebook or print) from a retail channel.  It will help keep writers able to write every time you do that!  Thank you again and glad you enjoy my books.

[21] Posted by Melanie on 08.26.2010

Dear Laura!
You are more than welcome :)

I’m one of those people that loves to read FROM a book, in a very special place with a lot of sun (or sometimes rain) in the background… These days our kids are living in an INSTANT society and it makes me very sad.  It is all NOW!!!  They watch movies that are not even in the theaters yet!  There is something to GOING to the theaters! Smell of popcorn, people enjoying the story, discussing it afterwards…I realize that prices have gone up, but we don’t HAVE to see it all, read it all…its fun to make choices.  I want to say it must be generational, but then again I can’t, as I think it’s up to us parents to keep at it and remind our young ones to continue in our footsteps, and not take the EASY way out….Keep up the MUSE going!

[22] Posted by Judith on 11.12.2010

I’m interested to hear how others interpreted the significance of the phrase “What difference does it make?”  Arden first says this to Zenia on page 92 just before they make love when she tells him “I want to be brave ... I don’t want to cry ... I’m going to cry if you don’t hold onto me.”  He responds:  “‘It’s no matter.’ He sounded angry. ‘Cry then! What difference does it make if you cry?’” A few lines later he tells her “I’m a blackguard ... I want you.  I want inside you ... She understood him.  He felt it in the way she stilled.  ‘Stop me,’ he said, his lips on her skin.  ‘Damn you.’”  She responds “Go on, What difference does it make?”.  Later on page 130 when Arden has returned to England to unexpectedly find Zenia ensconced at Swanmere (the heart of “enemy” territory for Arden in the form of English propriety and his parents stifling control but detached emotionality) all he can really remember about her is that she said “What difference does it make?” before he had made love to her that night in the desert so long ago when death seemed imminent.  I think that phrase echoes again in Arden’s mind a third time in the book but I just can’t seem to find it right now.  Anyway, I have an idea of the significance of this to Arden, but I’m curious how others interpreted that element of the story and Arden.  Of course, the author’s intent would also be of interest, Laura?

[23] Posted by eKathy on 11.13.2010

Hello Judith: I read it in the context of this being their last night to be alive.
When you are about to die what difference does it make whether or not you cry? It is OK to cry. What difference does it make if you decide to make love or not? What consequences could there be?
The refrain is heard again on 93. “Unbearable. He was afraid he was the one who was going to cry. What difference does it make? None, but that he wanted her to want him. He did not want to take only. He wanted to give. But in a few hours all scruples were going to be nothing.”
How noble must a person who is going to die be, especially when “she pushed her hips against him” and “it felt exquisite. It felt like life.”
And then to find out (when he returns to England) that the difference was the making of another life ... “apparently it had made a difference after all, he thought fiercely.”
I think also that her calm acceptance at the top of 93—Tomorrow they would not be alive. So what difference would it make—is what Arden is remembering as infinitely cold and languid. At this point his memory is not serving him well.
I have a feeling you are looking for something more deep than this, but I ready it very straightforwardly.

[24] Posted by judith on 11.14.2010

eKathy,

Thanks for responding.  Good points, and the passage you indicate immediately following in which you get Arden’s perspective I probably “cruised” through on my most recent reading, because no matter how many times I read Kinsale (and I have read all of them many times) and TRY to force myself to slow down, I find that I focus on the dialogue and unintentionally skip key elements of description because I want to see what happens next!  (Suspense even when you already KNOW the outcome!)  So, good point on noting Arden’s sense of loneliness and uncertainty with respect to first thinking that Zenia was indifferent about HIM.  But ... I still think there’s something else at play there. I did finally find where it is repeated yet again —top of page 134.  At that point, he briefly considers riding all night to Swanmere, but upon imagining walking into his wife’s bedroom, he wonders (bottom p. 133) “Who was she? What would she look like? He couldn’t remember her.  He only remembered that she had said.  What difference does it make?  He turned the horses west, away from Swanmere.”  But that’s not the ONLY cause for turning away—his old insecurities in the world of his parents also play in to that decision.  The thing is, I think there are actually TWO things going on here.  On one hand, Arden’s shy insecurity (self-esteem issues) interprets what she said as being, if not a rejection of him, certainly not a passionate embrace of him.  On the other hand, her “what difference does it make” reaction to her potential deflowering (disaster in English society) and their imminent death makes her the total antithesis of “English Lady”. In the face of the threats to both reputation and life, she is not hysterical and does not cling to the rigid social order of English society as the other women he knows—his mother and the debs she pushes on him—would. Turns out, maybe Miss Bruce is who/what he’s really been looking for even though he hadn’t quite figured that out yet—that is, he knows what he DOESN’T want, but he’s not entirely sure what he DOES want.  She doesn’t faint or get the vapors at the suggestion he wants to have sex with her.  She is calm, quiet, and practical in the face of a really bad situation.  In a way, I guess the problem of interpreting Zenia’s “What difference does it make?” sort of sums up the typical conundrum many of us encounter in real relationships.  Often what people say can be interpreted in more than one way, and we have to figure out what they really mean.  Our insecure side tends toward the less flattering even while we may hope for the more positive meaning.  The insecure side of Arden thinks she means that since they don’t have long to live, what difference does it matter if she does it with HIM, even if, as he thinks, she is not really attracted to him.  But the more confident side of Arden who has been lonely and looking to fill that empty part of himself for so long, and who has only just realized that the Bedouin boy who he really respects is actually a woman, maybe on some level recognizes that a woman who can be so practical and matter of fact, and quietly brave and not a prisoner to social convention in the face of disaster may be just who he’s looking for.  I think it comes up more than once because he continues to struggle to figure out what she really meant. The statement attracts the bolder side of him who is looking for a worthy partner to end his loneliness, but repels the insecure side of him that always feels awkward and uncertain of his personal worth.  He dwells on those words not because there’s only a single interpretation rejection of him but precisely because he’s uncertain about their meaning, coming from her.  Otherwise, why do they echo through the story?  If it’s just that he’s drawn to her but remains convinced that she’s dismissive of him and will reject him, psychologically it seems unlikely he would continue to pursue her or obsess over her.  He’s kind of a “black and white” guy when it comes to feeling accepted or rejected.  Clearly he wants the love of his parents but never feels like he has been loved, and look at how he responds to them.  Having been “pushed away” (or held at emotional distance) by both mother and father, he does everything now to push them away first.

[25] Posted by Judith on 11.14.2010

eKathy -

As for his sardonic internal comment “apparently it had made a difference after all” upon learning he has a daughter, I thought that a clever way for the author to draw the reader’s attention back to the significance of both their “What difference does it make?” comments and their possible alternate interpretations.  I guess that brings to light yet another layer of “what difference does it make?” By my count, we now have:

1. Arden to Zenia :  What difference does it make if you cry (act like a typical female)? - Which, of course, up to that point she most definitely had NOT since he only just figured out that she WAS a woman.

2. Zenia to Arden (Interpretation #1):  What difference does it make ...if I lose my virginity to you even if I’m not all that interested in you? We’ll both be dead tomorrow.

3.  Zenia to Arden (Interpretation #2): What difference does it make ... if I have sex with you and get pregnant?  We’ll both be dead tomorrow. (This makes sense only to the degree that Arden later interprets the comment in THIS very way.)

4. Zenia to Arden (Interpretation #3):  What difference does it (honor) make ... that you don’t hold yourself to some noble social conventions about how ladies and gentlemen are supposed to comport themselves?  We’ll both be dead tomorrow

Bottom of p 91 - “He kissed her hungrily, angrily, deeply.  He could not bear to face eternity having been so close and having never been a part of her.”  On p 92 he pushes away from her with a sound of anguish ... later same page, after he tells her it’s no matter if she cries she desperately asks him to hold her. 

“His hands rested on her shoulders. He tightened them.  His fingers pressed into her. 

Zenia reached up suddenly and pulled his head down to her.  She thrust her lips against his, seeking.

Arden felt the edge perishing beneath his feet, his last honor crumbling.  ‘I’m a blackguard,’ he said against her mouth.  ‘I want you.  I want inside you.’

She understood him.  He felt it in the way she stilled. 

‘Stop me,’ he said, his lips on her skin. ‘Damn you.’”

At this point, she says what difference does it make.  I think she is asking him “why stand on social convention now?”  What’s the point?  Maybe it’s that Bedouin desert practicality. Maybe he’s afraid of finding what he’s been searching for (what does the dog do with the car once he’s caught it?).  Maybe he NEEDS her to demand that he follow social convention because feeling unloved is the known “bad” but feeling loved (or the potential to love and be loved)is the scary, unknown potential good.  As humans, it is easier for us to stick with what is familiar (but perhaps painful) than to take a chance on the unfamiliar (but perhaps wonderful). 

Arden tried to disengage himself and do the noble thing, and Zenia pursues him and says “so what?” if he isn’t honorable by conventional standards—so in a way, his interpreting her words as a rejection of HIM only makes sense of he needs to cling to his familiar world of loneliness and rejection—But, on some level, Arden knows in his gut that there is more than one way to interpret what she says…

[26] Posted by laura kinsale on 11.16.2010

I actually am far more interested in readers’ interpretations than in my own. ;)  I learn a lot more!

[27] Posted by judith on 11.16.2010

Laura -

Yes, but you wrote it in there as an echo for a reason (didn’t you?)—regardless of how we readers interpret it ... so why does it echo for Arden???

[28] Posted by laura kinsale on 11.16.2010

If you’d asked me that in 1993, I might have been able to answer.  At this point I think you know as much about it as I do…

[29] Posted by judith on 11.16.2010

I was afraid that was what you were going to say.  What’s a mere 17 years??  But I understand about letting go once the “the baby” is “birthed”.  No doubt you obsess over your stories while you’re writing them, and we obsess over them after they’re written.  I guess that’s what allows them to be relevant over a lifetime—as our perspective changes based on our life’s experience, our interpretations of your characters and their actions gets to shift accordingly.  There’s a certain beauty to not pinning things down to firmly.

[30] Posted by eKathy on 11.16.2010

Now I feel like I have to read it again a look for more insight into what difference it makes. Ahhh.

[31] Posted by judith on 11.16.2010

eKathy -

And the problem with that is?????  You just get enjoy it all over again.  Sorry if I “pushed” you.  You’d have eventually “jumped” at reading it again anyway.  :-)

[32] Posted by eKathy on 11.16.2010

Ahhh. Was a sigh of gladness! An excuse to read it again ... as if I needed one. Hey, it’s been a whole nine months since I last read it. Must be time to read it again. The real problem is how they spoil a person for almost all other romances. Not much measures up.

[33] Posted by judith on 11.16.2010

eKathy - Totally agree that it’s hard to find anything else that measures up - either as romance, or as just deeply good, thoughtful fiction.  And I find I’m torn between both wanting to share with friends, and jealous of the goldmine I’ve found—not so sure I want to share.  And of course, you don’t want to get into arguments with friends with different taste over whether or not they are the best ever, b/c we KNOW the answer to that one already!  So do you have a fav and why?  My favs change depending on which one I’m reading at the time HaHa!

[34] Posted by Debra on 12.11.2010

I loved this book the first time I read and enjoy it more every time I’ve re-read it.
Plus, I keep noticing things I missed in my earlier readings - like the fact that Arden had run away to the army when he was 14. I really like him as a character, but also feel such compassion for his father who had only the one son with whom he couldn’t relate at all. Their relationship was heartbreaking. Arden was strangled by his father’s over-protectiveness, but his father suffers, too, and keeps drinking the cordials. Zenia was such a consistent, desperate, frightened person but I liked her and liked how Arden described her as “hell-born brave.”
I thought much of the prose became poetic. This is one of my favorite passages:

He watched the water drip, and walked, lost in savage desolation and utter solitude. The long inhuman reaches of the desert, where his body found the limits of what it could endure, and his soul came near to peace.
He had longed for it, with a longing that was terrible. And yet even here, he was looking for something that he could not find.
All of his life, he had been looking. He did not know what for . . . Sometimes he thought he found it in the evening, when they stopped to rest and the red sands turned violet and indigo, flooded with light like a frozen tossing sea, and he turned from that glory to where Selim cooked homely balls of flour in the bottom of the fire, and burned his fingers retrieving them from the ashes.
Sometimes he thought he found it in the morning when he rose and walked to the top of a sand hill, and grew drunk on the pure clear arch of sky and the silence. Sometimes he thought he found it in a dry mouth and and a thimbleful of water swallowed in the shadow of his patient camel. . .
He thought he found what he was looking for, in moments that came and vanished, that he could not hold on to. . . he prayed for it to end and he wanted it to go on forever.
In so many of Laura Kinsale’s books, it seems like the happy life is so nearly out of reach, like a tiny lantern at the end of long dark tunnel. If the hero and heroine cannot each reach the lantern, or someone takes it away or it winks out, they are such unique characters that they will be condemned to wander in darkness without that light. The suspense is always so good - can they, will they reach the light? and in time?
I like several other Laura Kinsale books, but this is my all-time favorite.
Thanks, Laura, for writing it!

[35] Posted by laura kinsale on 12.15.2010

*smile*  Thank you Debra.  I enjoyed writing the desert journey.

[36] Posted by Marylou on 05.19.2011

Trapped in the desert with only a dozen books to read and reread I have to say they would all be Laura Kinsale novels.  This one took me a little while to recognize its genius.  But that is part of the absolutely beguiling surprise of Kinsale,her books actually improve with subsequent readings!  One of my favorite scenes is when Arden is trying to explain why he appeared entranced with her rival during their date at the zoo.  He was plotting to get her alone later!  Many writers would have stated it as baldly as I just did,-only Kinsale can make you laugh and weep at the same time.  I just adore you Laura, but I can’t help wishing you could write them as fast as I can read them.:)

[37] Posted by laura kinsale on 05.19.2011

If I can write a book that makes readers laugh and weep at the same time, I think I’ve succeeded at my goal!  At least Charles Dickens thought so…

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